"A desire for lobster dinner is not a violation of kashrus laws, only the dinner is. The same is true with homosexuality."

The other day, after Rabbis Helfgot and Freundel spoke, my wife and I sat with Rabbi Freundel over lunch. In a friendly manner, we continued our discussion. At one point, Rabbi Freundel stated that he would like to see a study done about the failure of reparative therapy.

Not a study done about the success of reparative therapy, but the failure of reparative therapy. He said that everyone is claiming that reparative therapy doesn't work, but he would like to see a scientific study conducted to prove it doesn't work. He then went on to say that if in fact reparative therapy was unsuccessful, maybe it was not the fault of the therapy, but due to some other factor weighing on the subject's psyche.

I answered by saying that I don't need scientific proof. My proof is in the large amount of young men who have told me that they have gone through reparative therapy, only to fail at it, sometimes leading them to the point of suicide.

I quietly vowed to myself that I would find the information that Rabbi Fruendel was searching for. I will post my findings over the next few days.

Here is the first one...................

But stay tuned......

There's more on the way.

SD

ABC News



The Toughest Call: Conversion Therapy


Jennifer Lee Had a Tough Choice to Make When She Found Out Her Husband Is Gay


By ALISON LYNN and MAGGIE BURBANK


Sept. 22, 2007 —

Jennifer Lee thought she'd found the man of her dreams when she met Steve Lee. He was handsome, sensitive and most of all funny.

They quickly fell in love and after Jennifer converted to Mormonism, they married. After a few years, they welcomed a son. Despite their seemingly happy, secure relationship, Steve was hiding a secret, one he'd had since he was 19 years old.

Jennifer was devastated when her husband told her he is gay.

She was suddenly faced with the toughest call she could imagine: should she stay with her husband who has just come out to her or should she leave him? Although the news shocked and upset her, Jennifer decided something could be done.


"I started to convince myself it didn't have to be," Jennifer said, "and I started to convince him it didn't have to be and he agreed."


Steve, a devout Mormon, feared God would not accept him if he were gay. The couple met with their bishop who urged Steve to rid himself of his homosexuality by going through conversion therapy, a controversial program intended to eliminate homosexual feelings. Steve felt he had no choice.


"I wanted to be accepted by God," he said. "I wanted to be loved. That was everything to me. And so I saw no other route."


So every week Steve joined other Mormon men for group therapy. Most conversion therapy involves different forms of behavior modification, attempting to make people straight by having them act straight. Some programs even teach men about stereotypically "male" activities, such as talking about football and changing motor oil. Steve did not find that his experience with conversion therapy was at all therapeutic.


"I would definitely call it brainwashing," he said. "It was an exercise in humiliation."


There is much skepticism surrounding conversion therapy and whether it's even possible to reverse someone's sexual orientation. Most professional health organizations reject the theories behind conversion therapy, and many have even deemed it a potentially harmful "treatment."


Jack Drescher is a psychiatrist in New York and warns that not only is conversion therapy unlikely to work, it can be very dangerous.


"Patients feel more depressed and anxious when the treatment doesn't work," Drescher said. "They blame themselves. Some people became suicidal."


Are Conversions Successful?


The largest faith-based conversion therapy program in the country is Love in Action, which is located in Memphis, Tenn. Eight years ago "20/20" was invited to meet nine participants in the program who were attempting to purge themselves of what they called "homosexual behaviors."


James Serra, one of those men, says he is one of the program's success stories. Serra stayed in the program for three years, and today he's a counselor at Love in Action.


When asked whether he was a gay man or a straight man, Serra answered, "I'm a man, period. And the way I see it, it's a behavior. Homosexual, heterosexual is a behavior."


While Serra admits he is still attracted to men, he emphasizes that he has not acted on those feelings in eight years. Even though he has yet to have a relationship with a woman, he hopes that one day he will get married and have children.


Wade Richards was Serra's roommate when "20/20" visited Love in Action. As a devout Christian, Richards says he was faced with the difficult call of whether to accept his attraction to men or try to change. Despite the time he spent in conversion therapy, he now lives his life as a gay man.


"I believe that a loving God would not have someone go through such a struggle," said Richards.


Big Bucks on Sexuality Conversion


The faith-based movement to convert people's sexuality is a lucrative industry. Last spring the conservative Christian organization Focus on the Family hosted a conference called "Love Won Out" at a megachurch in Nebraska. Parents were encouraged to bring their children to the conference so they could learn the church's take on homosexuality.


In addition to the $60 entrance fee, attendees could purchase books and videos, including a book by John Paulk, former chairman of Exodus International, a network with more than 11,000 affiliated ministries. Claiming to be "ex-gay" for more than a decade and happily married to a woman, Paulk was considered a poster child for conversion therapy.


Then in 2001, "20/20" reported that Paulk was photographed coming out of a gay bar in Washington, D.C. He is still married, but stepped down from Exodus. His book about his own conversion from homosexuality is still being sold.


Like many of the attendees at the "Love Won Out" conference, Steve and Jennifer had hoped that conversion therapy would be effective. After Steve went through a Mormon therapy program, Jennifer made the tough call to stay in the marriage. They subsequently had two more children, but all along, Steve felt painfully trapped.


"There wasn't a 15-minute segment of any day that went by that I did not feel terrible inside my head," Steve said.


After 16 years of marriage, Steve admitted to Jennifer that he had been having a long-term affair with another married man. The couple has now been divorced for four years, and Jennifer has written a book called "My Ex Is Having Sex With Rex."


Jennifer says, in retrospect, one of her biggest regrets in life was to believe that her husband's sexuality could be changed by conversion therapy. She wishes churches would embrace anyone and everyone, but doubts that will ever be a reality.


"In a utopian world, the churches would open their arms and accept everybody in the world for who they are," she said, "but I don't believe that's going to happen."


Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures

"Don't ask, don't tell."

A few months ago, I was asked if my son and I would be willing to sit on a panel to discuss the "Statement of Principles..."
At first both of us agreed, but after some discussion over the Chagim, we concluded that perhaps it would not be a good idea to sit on a panel in our own city. We questioned whether any good would come of it or would people attend just to see the gay guy and his father. So we politely declined.

The panel discussion was held today. On the panel was Rabbi Nathaniel Helfgot, the driving force behind the Statement, and Rabbi Barry Freundel, who wrote "Homosexuality and Judaism" in the Journal of Halakha and Contemporary Society in 1986.

Rabbi Helfgot opened the discussion with a narrative of how The Statement came to fruition, how it began as a response to the YU symposium held last December and how it took six months for it to be published after it was vetted by a large amount of Rabbis, health professionals, halakhists, jurists. He explained that some people who were involved in the development of The Statement were unable to lend their name to it for political or social reasons.

Rabbi Freundel followed with a discussion that began with his claim that just about everything that was covered in The Statement has been previously been published either by him in 1986 or in subsequent essays over the years by the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA). He told us that his essay, "Homosexuality and Judaism" was used by the Pentagon during the Clinton administration to formulate its policy of "Don't ask, don't tell." He said that he would have no problem if a gay person had an aliyah in his shul, so long as he did not openly announce his homosexuality. He likened homosexuality to kashruth and shabbat observance and made a comparison to circumcisions which were frowned upon during Hellenistic times. He also claimed that in jurisdictions where gay marriage is legal, there is less of an issue.

After the speakers completed their talks, the floor was opened to questions. The first person to speak was asked to come up to the mike by Rabbi Freundel. This man, who claimed to be a psycho-therapist, claimed that he has cured numerous young men through reparative therapy. The next person to speak was the head of Mizrachi, an eighty-something man who said that something had to be done to stop gay people from influencing young people to become gay.

Prior to walking into this discussion, my wife and some friends had "advised" me not to speak. After these two people finished their so-called questions, I asked to speak. I stated that I did not have a question but I wanted to comment on some of the points which were raised.

I began by reminding the audience and the panelists that The Statement was a direct result of the symposium which was held at YU last December. I reminded them that the title of the symposium was "On Being Gay in the Modern Orthodox World" and as such they have to bear in mind that these young men want to be part of the Orthodox world. I made 4 points........

1. Legalized gay marriage is not an issue to these young men. They are not interested in a civil marriage just as heterosexual men and women who are modern Othrodox don't run off to Las Vegas for a civil marriage.

2. I stated that kashruth is a choice, Shabbat is a choice, milah is a choice but sexuality is not a choice.

3. In terms of reparative therapy, I stated that I have first hand knowledge of young men who have tried reparative therapy and instead of becoming a heterosexual had tried suicide. I commented that any life lost as a result of reparative therapy is one life too many.

4. Finally, my response to the head of Mizrachi was that these young men who want a place in the Modern Orthodox world are not cast members of Glee. Their goal is not to convert little boys to homosexuality.

I must say, this was an emotionally trying day. After the panel discussion, we broke for lunch and we sat with Rabbi Freundel during lunch. We had an open and frank discussion out of the public eye. I would much rather have a discussion with someone like Rabbi Freundel, who represents the establishment and who is clear and articulate in his opinion, than the rabbi of the shul where I used to attend, who signed The Statement but refused my son as an eyd.

Prior to today's panel discussion I spent the last two days with Rabbi Helfgot because he was a scholar in residence at my shul. We had lots of opportunity to discuss the symposium, the statement and my son's role in the Jewish community.

As the day drew to a close, the organizer came to me and said that it was a good idea that my son and I were not the main panelists in light of what came from the audience.

L'chaim Mr. Clinton.

Be well.

SD

"The thing was very bad in Abraham's eyes." - Parashat Va-yera

It has been three years since I began this blog.

Over the last few weeks, we have been following the narrative in the Torah of Avraham, the"father" of the Jewish people. On a strictly literal level he made some pretty serious errors that resulted in a change to his family.

Picture this..................

Abraham and his wife are on a vacation, the king takes one look at Abraham's wife, and Abraham is out the door. "Her? Na, she's my sister. No problem. I'll just pick her up in the morning."

or, even better ...........


Wordlessly, Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael away. They find themselves stranded in the wilderness without water. Hagar tosses her son under a bush, because she cannot stand to see his death. Blinded by tears, she does not see a water source, until a messenger of God tells her to lift her eyes, and look. And this seeing closes the story, with Ishmael's life saved and his destiny assured.

And look at how that has turned out for us!


Even Avraham, the father of the Jewish people, had to adjust to the changes that affected his family.


It's been three years since I wrote "A family changed forever." Last night, I met with a couple whose son told them that he is gay. Their rabbi directed them to this blog and as a result of a business trip that brought me to their city, we were able to meet. We spent several hours together.



They are, where we were, three years ago.



This meeting has given me the opportunity to reflect on the last three years and where we are today.


As usual, a meeting like this is highly emotional and wrought with tears. We met in the evening, spent over two hours together, and as usual, I could not get to sleep, having relived the last few years. The sleep I managed to get lasted barely two hours as our discussion kept me from getting a restful sleep.



It's time to do a "cheshbon".



We are in a much better place today than three years ago. My son is doing well. He is actively pursuing his career as well as being a leading advocate for gay rights in the Modern Orthodox world. Our other children are doing fine as well. They are also actively pursuing their careers and moving on with their lives. We have tried to find as many opportunities as we could to bring everyone together as a family and I think we have succeeded at that. We make sure to spend every Pesach and Rosh Hashana together as a family.



Last month our kids made us a 36th wedding anniversary party. They invited friends and family who have been there for us over the years.


It was more than an anniversary party. They were making a statement.


They were exclaiming to the world in a clear and loud voice that we are doing just fine.


Be well.


Saul David

"Onlythegoodieyoung"

This past Shavuot, my son and his friends were sitting around the table, and the discussion turned to their families and the struggles that their parents were facing. They played a game to see which family had more issues. Of course the discussion included being gay in the modern orthodox world, the so-called shidduch crisis, the rapidly growing divorce rate, the economy....you name it.

Then one of his friends told the group that his parents were sitting in a hospital in Los Angeles with his younger brother who was dying of cancer. The friends sat back and declared him the winner.

His brother, Gilad Schwartz, succumbed to his illness. Yesterday, my son and his friends attended his funeral in Baltimore.

Recently, I have been in an email discussion with someone who was having a difficult time dealing with his parents. The parents were having a hard time struggling with the fact that this accomplished young man is gay. I suggested that his parents read the blog that Gilad wrote from his hospital bed.

It is www.onlythegoodieyoung.wordpress.com

May The Almighty comfort Gilad Schwartz's family among the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem.

Saul David

"Gay until proven straight." - Naomi Toby

It's time for a little reality check......thanks to my children!

We were sitting around the Shabbos table with two of our daughters, my eldest daughter who is visiting us from Israel and my youngest child who is home from camp for week before she returns to Stern College.

The topics of discussion were varied and sometimes intense, and very often they center around the "shidduch crisis" and of course, being gay and Orthodox.

It is a sad commentary of our time that so many marriages of young people are dissolving after a relatively short period of time.

Being a single-minded person, I made a comment that maybe some of these marriages are dissolving because one of the partners are gay (since I now view everything through "gay lenses").

It was at this point that my youngest daughter looked at me and said that I paint everything with the same "gay" brush.

She then stated that my motto should be "Gay until proven straight."

Be well.

Saul David

"A camel is a horse designed by committee." Vogue Magazine, July 1958

Once again, I must commend those rabbis and health professionals who signed the Statement of Principles on the Place of Jews with a Homosexual Orientation in Our Community.



I do not want to minimize the risk they have taken by signing this document. I want to wish them Hakarat HaTov for all their efforts.



However I do have problems with various aspects of the Statement. I mentioned these problems in my previous postings and I will repeat them again, hopefully for the last time.



I have a problem with the fact that it took six months after the symposium to issue this Statement, while those opposed to the symposium issued their attacks within days.



And I have a problem with some of the content, as you can read on my previous posting.



I fully recognize that this was a group effort and as such, it took so long to produce and to reach a consensus. It was, like the proverbial camel, a Statement designed by committee.



But I am just a committee of one, so I have taken up the task of offering a revised statement, written by a parent of a child who is gay. I have a vested interest and I am probably much closer to the issue than any of the signatories may care to admit.



This is a serious effort on my part and I am writing this with no malice intended. I have used some parts of the Statement because the authors have expressed themselves so much better than I could have.



You be the judge..................



1. All human beings are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect (kevod haberiyot). Every Jew is obligated to fulfill the entire range of mitzvot between person and person in relation to persons who are homosexual or have feelings of same sex attraction. Embarassing, harassing or demeaning someone with a homosexual orientation or same-sex attraction is a violation of Torah prohibitions that embody the deepest values of Judaism.



2. We accept the decision of the American Psychiatric Association in its declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder. Therefore we concur that homosexuality cannot be treated and cured.



3. We categorically reject any efforts by any organization claiming to have the ability to change a person from a homosexual to a heterosexual, especially since these so-called therapies have not been proven to be effective in the least and may have been the cause of suicides at most. Any loss of life as a result of these efforts is one life too many to sacrifice.



4. We recognize that since Creation, man has always desired a mate, and as such, and in spite of the halakhic prohibitions, same-sex relations will occur. We have been witness in the last few years to families with parents of the same sex raising children. In spite of the halakhic implication, we would urge these parents to raise their children, to the best of their ability, in a Torah observant manner.

5. We encourage all Jews to fulfill the obligation of praying b'tzibbur, and as such we ask that synagogues and institutions make all Jews welcome, regardless of their sexual orientation. We encourage all Jews to strive for a Torah observant life and so, we encourage homosexuals who grew up in an observant home, or who are trying to become more observant, in spite of the perceived obstacles, to continue in their efforts to live life as a Torah observant Jew. We would ask all synagogues and minyanim to accord everyone the same rights and honors, regardless. There have been too many situations, over the last few years, where persons have been accorded the highest honors and rights, only to have been found guilty of any number of wrongdoings.

6. Humankind was created "in the image of G-d". We are not worthy to question why Hashem created people in a certain way. We must always remember that everyone is a unique creation and everyone should be treated as hashem would want them to be treated.

Be well.

Saul David

"The ignorance, neglect, or contempt of the rights of man are the sole cause of public calamities..."The Declaration of the Rights of Man" 1789.

While I commend the rabbis who signed the Statement for doing so, the more I read the statement, the more I have problems with it.

Bear in mind that my perspective is as a parent of a child who is gay.

Allow me to break it down.......

We, the undersigned Orthodox rabbis, rashei yeshiva, ramim, Jewish educators and communal leaders affirm the following principles with regard to the place of Jews with a homosexual orientation in our community:

1. All human beings are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect (kevod haberiyot). Every Jew is obligated to fulfill the entire range of mitzvot between person and person in relation to persons who are homosexual or have feelings of same sex attraction. Embarrassing, harassing or demeaning someone with a homosexual orientation or same-sex attraction is a violation of Torah prohibitions that embody the deepest values of Judaism.

This is a fine preamble along the lines of the Declaration of Independence and The Declaration of the Rights of Man, both composed in the late 1700s. It is always good to begin a statement in broad, glowing terms.

2. The question of whether sexual orientation is primarily genetic, or rather environmentally generated, is irrelevant to our obligation to treat human beings with same-sex attractions and orientations with dignity and respect.

I question why this had to be inserted at all, but it becomes more clear a few points later on.

3. Halakhah sees heterosexual marriage as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression. The sensitivity and understanding we properly express for human beings with other sexual orientations does not diminish our commitment to that principle.

With this point, the rabbis are making it clear exactly where they stand.

4. Halakhic Judaism views all male and female same-sex sexual interactions as prohibited. The question of whether sexual orientation is primarily genetic, or rather environmentally generated, is irrelevant to this prohibition. While halakha categorizes various homosexual acts with different degrees of severity and opprobrium, including toeivah, this does not in any way imply that lesser acts are permitted. But it is critical to emphasize that halakha only prohibits homosexual acts; it does not prohibit orientation or feelings of same-sex attraction, and nothing in the Torah devalues the human beings who struggle with them. (We do not here address the issue of hirhurei aveirah, a halakhic category that goes beyond mere feelings and applies to all forms of sexuality and requires precise halakhic definition.)

Once again the question of whether or not sexual orientation is genetic is raised again.

Back in January, NoPeanuts made the following comment:

The thing that these Rosh Yeshivahs, particularly Twersky keep talking about is that the issues surrounding homosexuality, particularly its origins and transitionality are an ongoing debate in the medical community, very much up in the air.

I have never heard this from a certified healthcare professional.

5. Whatever the origin or cause of homosexual orientation, many individuals believe that for most people this orientation cannot be changed. Others believe that for most people it is a matter of free will. Similarly, while some mental health professionals and rabbis in the community strongly believe in the efficacy of “change therapies”, most of the mental health community, many rabbis, and most people with a homosexual orientation feel that some of these therapies are either ineffective or potentially damaging psychologically for many patients.

We affirm the religious right of those with a homosexual orientation to reject
therapeutic approaches they reasonably see as useless or dangerous.

Again, the issue is raised. But this time there is a discussion of the "efficacy" of "change therapies". In spite of the affirmation that homosexuals have a "right" to reject "therapeutic approaches they reasonably see as useless or dangerous". This is not an unequivocal statement. This affirmation does not recognize the declaration made by the American Psychiatric Association that reparative therapy does not work.

There seems to be "a reasonable doubt" casting a shadow over this statement. There is a disproportionate amount of discussion around genetic causes and choice.

6. Jews with a homosexual orientation who live in the Orthodox community confront serious emotional, communal and psychological challenges that cause them and their families great pain and suffering. For example, homosexual orientation may greatly increase the risk of suicide among teenagers in our community. Rabbis and communities need to be sensitive and empathetic to that reality. Rabbis and mental health professionals must provide responsible and ethical assistance to congregants and clients dealing with those human challenges.

Thank you for that.

7. Jews struggling to live their lives in accordance with halakhic values need and deserve our support. Accordingly, we believe that the decision as to whether to be open about one's sexual orientation should be left to such individuals, who should consider their own needs and those of the community. We are opposed on ethical and moral grounds to both the “outing” of individuals who want to remain private and to coercing those who desire to be open about their orientation to keep it hidden.

Again, thank you for this point.

8. Accordingly, Jews with homosexual orientations or same sex-attractions should be welcomed as full members of the synagogue and school community. As appropriate with regard to gender and lineage, they should participate and count ritually, be eligible for ritual synagogue honors, and generally be treated in the same fashion and under the same halakhic and hashkafic framework as any other member of the synagogue they join. Conversely, they must accept and fulfill all the responsibilities of such membership, including those generated by communal norms or broad Jewish principles that go beyond formal halakhah.

We do not here address what synagogues should do about accepting members
who are openly practicing homosexuals and/or living with a same-sex partner.
Each synagogue together with its rabbi must establish its own standard with
regard to membership for open violators of halakha.
Those standards should be applied fairly and objectively.

I can live with this point.

9. Halakha articulates very exacting criteria and standards of eligibility for particular religious offices, such as officially appointed cantor during the year or baal tefillah on the High Holidays. Among the most important of those criteria is that the entire congregation must be fully comfortable with having that person serve as its representative. This legitimately prevents even the most admirable individuals, who are otherwise perfectly fit halakhically, from serving in those roles. It is the responsibility of the lay and rabbinic leadership in each individual community to determine eligibility for those offices in line with those principles, the importance of maintaining communal harmony, and the unique context of its community culture.

It goes without saying that any baal tefillah should live up to a high standard. However, there is a political reality to every organization and this usually manifests itself in that any minority, including a sexual minority, will more often than not, not find a place there.

10. Jews with a homosexual orientation or same sex attraction, even if they engage in same sex interactions, should be encouraged to fulfill mitzvot to the best of their ability. All Jews are challenged to fulfill mitzvot to the best of their ability, and the attitude of “all or nothing” was not the traditional approach adopted by the majority of halakhic thinkers and poskim throughout the ages.

The "all or nothing" attitude does not stem from the homosexual but it comes as a result of his or her rejection from the Orthodox Jewish community.

11. Halakhic Judaism cannot give its blessing and imprimatur to Jewish religious
same-sex commitment ceremonies and weddings, and halakhic values proscribe individuals and communities from encouraging practices that grant religious legitimacy to gay marriage and couplehood. But communities should display sensitivity, acceptance and full embrace of the adopted or biological children of homosexually active Jews in the synagogue and school setting, and we encourage parents and family of homosexually partnered Jews to make every effort to maintain harmonious family relations and connections.

This sounds like the statement is advocating celibacy and a life without intimacy.

12. Jews who have an exclusively homosexual orientation should, under most circumstances, not be encouraged to marry someone of the other gender, as
this can lead to great tragedy, unrequited love, shame, dishonesty and ruined
lives. They should be directed to contribute to Jewish and general society in
other meaningful ways. Any such person who is planning to marry someone of
the opposite gender is halakhically and ethically required to fully inform their
potential spouse of their sexual orientation.

This is the one case where a person should be "outed" to protect the other party.

To sum up, in spite of their best efforts, this statement is lacking.

At first glance, I liked the statement and I was glad it was written, but after a second reading, I had issues with it. It loses its lustre and it does not go far enough. Had it been written as soon as possible after the symposium and after the nasty remarks by the Rabbeim, then it would have had more of a meaning and more of an impact.

By the third reading it seems apologetic and uncertain.

It is clear that they have not come to terms with the fact that homosexuality is not a choice.

More to come....

Be well.

Saul David